Episode 01: What can we do in 2SQTIBPOC Spaces?
Welcome to Episode 01 of Queering Mental Health, the Podcast!
In this episode, Shadi K talks about their goals for the consultation/supervision group they’re running starting NEXT MONTH! They talk with three other clinicians from Our Landing Place about creating spaces where 2SQTIBPOC folks can step out of the roles of educator or nurturer, what it feels like to encounter white fragility in therapy sessions with clients, and how spaces for and by 2SQTIBPOC clinicians can act to interrupt over- or under-identification with clients.
TRANSCRIPT:
Shadi K: Well, thanks so much for joining me for this chat. And I guess I've given you like a little bit of information about, yeah, the group that I am running in September. So it's going to be every four weeks, so approximately monthly. And it's geared towards like two spirit queer and trans clinicians of color. So like 2SQTIBPOC, like therapists and, you know, other clinicians like us. And my, like my hope, yeah, I guess part of the reason that I created it, like Alice, like called it like a pain point, you know, when you see that there's like kind of like something that you want out there in the world, but it seems to be missing. And so in part, you know, like I want to create this group because I just want a space to hang out with people like us and, you know, can often find that this work can be lonely, even though we do have a lot of great colleagues that sometimes in mixed spaces that there is sort of like this, this level of authenticity that like sometimes has to be curated when there are like white folks around. And there are just some struggles that we face that are different. And sometimes we need to just like be with folks who really get it. And so the group that I'm hoping to create, I would like for it to be kind of multipurpose. I definitely want clinicians to feel like they can bring cases to consult on and we would consult on them in a really like holistic way that takes into account, you know, like, like our social location, you know, how the work impacts us, like how to the state of the world is impacting us. And so having like these bigger picture conversations that are like relevant to the work that we do. Yes, Amber is going to be part of the podcast as well. That was inevitable. But also, you know, like if it's more important on a given day to like just talk about some of those bigger picture things or, you know, like really like hold people maybe in like hurt or grief or like something that's going on in their community, you know, because shit is going down all the time that like, like that just might take precedent. And that's okay. Because I do think that supervision groups and consultation groups like, you know, kind of should hold all of these things and can be more expansive than just looking at cases. And so, yeah, that's kind of like what my starting point is. And so, yeah, just wondering, like, you know, from your perspectives, I'm just like what your thoughts are.
Jade Giff: I think a space like that, it's something that is so needed. I can feel myself craving that more and more the more I do this work. I think one of the first things that came to mind is it's something I've noticed in seeing stuff come up in like Facebook groups and such, where it feels very easy to downplay concerns coming up for the clinician. And really, as much as that priority should be on the client, it does feel like sometimes we just don't get enough attention paid to the ways that... that we are being harmed by our clients sometimes. I remember taking to supervision a bit, not necessarily an incident, but a bit of a moment with a client in which I felt a little frozen. Because I felt like there was a bit of racism coming into play, it didn't really feel like something I could approach, because this is my client. And that I was really, really brought to mind how much I need that space where it's like some things are happening to me in this space as well. And I just, do deserve to bring attention to that I'm a human in this as well I need space for that pain and not just for my clients pain sometimes so that's one of the first things that came to mind and it really made me realize how heavy that's been feeling but it wasn't really at the front of my mind before.
Shadi K: Yeah well thank you for sharing that and yeah I'm just like sorry that you've experienced that but I yeah also have a sense that like a lot of us have been there yeah and to add to Jade's points you know I think oftentimes we don't talk about how we end up being in these rooms where we're supporting clients who maybe you know function or yeah function under this institution of racism and it's this I have for lack of words it just feels feels so disconcerting to kind of like sit in this room where you're supporting this client with their pain and maybe that pain is actually kind of steeped in the institutional racism and it's maybe against your own identity as a person as a human as a clinician and you're sitting there watching that kind of unfold recognizing that in the same time you're having to support this person but you also need the support and the integrity and dignity of being the person that that you are and it creates like this really complicated space within our therapy rooms so of recognizing that the same hurt that you know you're trying to help someone with are the same things that are constantly perpetuating those harms and hurts for for people you know within the BIPOC communities or the LGBTQ communities right. Yeah that was like one of one of the thoughts that I had as well is that like often when our communities are going through it you know like with some of the like the big things right that like especially in the past decades or so with like you know Black Lives Matter like anytime you know that that somebody gets murdered what's going on in Palestine like we we have our our clients that are like feeling like. Depths of pain and you know like I do think that it is an honor you know to be like a racialized clinician and be able to like hold that with people in a different way you know and like and maybe that's like more freeing for them or more comforting for them than to be with a white clinician but like we we might also be being impacted by those self-same things and and when like when others are fearing for their safety like we're fearing for our safety and and we kind of have that like magnified in front of our faces and you know we're thinking about it in our own personal lives but then we're like we have to think about it at work too because it's the thing that the client has brought and we're supposed to be that steady presence when like maybe we're you know kind of like shooketh at that moment too.
Jade Giff: I think that also brings up for me the appreciation that a space like this would be. I think spaces like this are so necessary also to take us out of the role of being like, I think responsible for sharing our knowledge, almost being in like a teaching role. I think there are just some things that happen, whether it's microaggressions or more like subtle instances of homophobia, of racism that isn't at a first glance recognized by a lot of people. And in those moments, I would love to not be the person to have to teach them that. I would love to just be able to sit with that pain. Like recently, I've been seeing more conversations about the police in Montreal cutting off the locks of Black men and keeping them as trophies. And I can see the difference in speaking about that to white people who can understand the atrocity that it is, but they don't necessarily understand the like real history of it, or even just like real significance of like Black hair per se. And to be able to be in a space where I don't have to teach somebody that they hear something like that and immediately understand the depth of that pain. I think there's so much relief in that. There's so much like pressure off of our shoulders, not having to be in that role and just being able to feel that pain for what it is. So I think that's another big thing here, like not having to be a teacher, not having to share our knowledge for one.
Shadi K: Yeah. Yeah. And just, you're right. Like there's, I think that there is this way, right, in which supportive and caring white colleagues kind of want to be there for you or want to be there for us when those things happen. But there is this real sort of sigh of relief when you know that somebody else gets something on a visceral level and it isn't just like kind of like an imagined, not that the empathy is imagined, but that the empathy is predicated on having to imagine what another person's experience is. As opposed to like someone else just feeling it in their gut, like the same, the same way that you feel it in that moment. Yeah. Curious if anything else is like coming up for you in this moment.
Aziz Mirza: I'm taking in, you know, what both of you are saying. And like you highlighted, I think these are the lived experience of so many of us and being able to just have these, not just shared language, but like you said, you know, these embodied and lived experiences. And being understood to such depth and extent, right? Like, I don't think that we can really put that into words, the power that that holds, right? And kind of like carrying that into like clinical relevance, right? Being able to know that we're, we can move beyond just like the self surface level understanding and validation of these experiences to be able to really get input from the point of really understanding the kind of impact that it has.
Shadi K: Right. Right. Right. Right.
Aziz Mirza: we're talking about something like transference or counter transference, I think that like, you know, understanding that on how that can even occur, maybe in ways that we don't understand, but can be understand from like, you know, another person, because they can understand hearing you on what could be happening, what could be coming up for you. I think it's so much power to that than having to just articulate that for, for yourself when it is really complicated. And sometimes we get really lost. And within those feelings and thoughts and words, and maybe you aren't able to help explain that in maybe some other, other spaces and consultations and knowing that that can be understood without us having to put words to that can, yeah, be so powerful.
Shadi K: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks Aziz. Yeah. And welcome Tina. Hooray. It's all good. I just decided that if you showed up, it would like change the display and Charles will just like work their magic. And then I'd be like, oh, Tina's here now. Yeah. But I think, but I think that you bring up like a good point Aziz too, is that like, it takes like time, energy, all of these things, right. To, to like explain how you feel about something, you know, if that ends up being like warranted, right. For the benefit of say like white colleagues, like we're, we're so lucky that we're in this space where we're at least like a by and for queer and trans clinic. And so, so like that piece of educating doesn't have to happen, you know, whereas in other areas of our lives, we're up against that as well. But yeah, whenever we feel like we have to bring someone up to speed or perhaps even justify our own experience, that also just takes away from the space there is to just feel the thing. Yeah. And so like, yeah, Tina, just to kind of let you know, like where we are. Yeah. I was just talking about what my rationale was for wanting to create a group for now I'm calling it the consultation group. Yeah. It's really kind of a consultation group plus, you know, where we just as Two-Spirit Queer Trans Clinicians of Color can come together and talk about the work. And if that means bringing cases, then, you know, that's, that's what we'll do and it'll be relevant and fruitful. But to be able to approach that in a way that's more holistic and also to have space, you know, if, if what is needed in that moment or in that session is to just talk about the state of the world, how things are affecting us. Yeah. I also I really wanted this to be a space where people can share support and resources, even in a really practical sense. It reminds me of, I think the running gag, right, is that I keep sort of prefacing everything with, I just read Care Work and, but I can't say enough about Care Work. And, you know, Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha, like what, what they say, right, how they describe these networks of care and, and specifically, right, these networks of care are often created They're by disabled queer people of color, right? And it is like queer people of color that just know this, you know, better than, than most other people, like how to show up for each other, how to support each other in these really tangible ways. The, the ways that we just share things and, you know, bring, you know, someone food or, or whatever it may be. We did this long before the pandemic. And this is something, you know, that like the rest of the world is just getting up to speed on. But I, I want this also to kind of mirror like that kind of network of care. And even if we are far apart and we can't, you know, maybe, you know, show up like, you know, with curry chicken to someone's house that, you know, like the, the virtual equivalent of that, whatever that is. Like to, to be able to show up for each other in some of these ways that are really unique too.
Jade Giff: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder if it's partially like a collectivist orientation versus like individuality kind of structure. in a lot of our communities? I think that that's part of what the kind of magic ingredients are for a space like this is I think like overwhelmingly, right? Those of us who are racialized do come from collectivistic cultures. And so we already just kind of bring an ethos, right? Or set of values to a space that is different in this way.
Tina Borsa: Yeah, I like that. I think one of the things I like, don't resonate with the collectivist culture is like this like sense of duty type thing, whereas I feel like in the way at least me and my friends take care of each other, it's not from a place of duty is from a place of like wanting to genuinely like show up for one another, rather than like, at least that's my experience, like, in Iranian culture of like this, like, oh, you have to do that versus I want to do that.
Shadi K: And this is definitely a labor of love, like, like, this is definitely being born out of wanting. To be there for other clinicians. Yeah. What do you think like the need for such a group is? And like, what would you like to see out of a space like that? Like, what would what would feel like really meaningful for you? You know, if you were a participant in a consultation group like this?
Tina Borsa: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. I feel like for me, it would be kind of having it feel natural, you know, having it feel like a conversation. I feel like you're going to end up with so much expertise in the room and everyone can kind of. Come together and share and be honest and authentic, which I think would do a lot in a space.
Jade Giff: I think what you mentioned of like the collectivist culture versus individualistic also brought up. I think relating back to what I was saying about typically having to step into the role of teacher educator. It's also really expected to step into a nurturing role, especially for like racialized folks socialized as women or as femmes. There's very much that expectation of you are in that caretaker role. You have to be the nurturer. So I imagine a space like this would again be that pressure off your shoulders where you can show up to be cared for.
Shadi K: Yes, there would be that.
Jade Giff:Again, collectivist, we are caring for each other, but I feel like there's something about it that would really release a lot of that pressure. It again, it wouldn't be out of like expectation or this is what you are meant to do. It's a genuine wanting to show up for each other and wanting. To show up and be held and cared for in whatever pain we're bringing in, whatever concerns we're bringing. So I think that's another thing of like, yeah, we can play that nurturing role, but we can also step back and just accept it.
Tina Borsa: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that would be so nice. I want to be nurtured. Who doesn't? I'm curious. How do y 'all feel about like, okay, this is going to be kind of a random question. Can I ask you a question? I don't know.
Shadi K: I think so. I think. I think Charles will do like what they need to do with what is, what is generated out of this.
Tina Borsa: I'm curious. Have y 'all ever had like white fragility show up in your spaces and like, how do you navigate that?
Shadi K: Yeah, no. I'm so glad that you asked that because when I was talking to Nicole yesterday and she was like trying to help me figure out how to like revamp my blurb. She's like, why don't you be like, have you, have you ever had to hold space for white fragility? And I was like, I was like, well, would any of us actually ever ask that? And it's like, yes, yes, I imagine from each of us is a resounding yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And, and so, so I'm like, I'm glad that you asked it and I do want to answer it, but I also want to say that is exactly the kind of question that like you could bring to the, to the consultation group that I, that I'm running in September. But that, that's the kind of thing that we would want to sit around. Yeah. And, and talk about because, because that's what we can do in a space like this. Just be like, ugh, I cannot believe, you know, that this, uh, that this client like showed up and brought this, you know, and expected me to just be like, well, you know, you were doing your best or, you know, when it's just like, bitch and, and it's, it's funny. Cause like the only thing I can think of off the top of my mind, I'd have to actually sit and have a think, but is actually something that one of my interns brought to supervision, also a racialized clinician, bless her heart. And all I could say after I just stopped laughing at the absurdity of what this person brought and their tears and their bids for empathy and understanding from a racialized clinician is you deserve a medal for this. And then we went into the piece about it, but I can't think of one of my own right now. But I'm just wondering if any of you have an anecdote that comes to mind. feels like it could be shared with appropriate anonymity, just about something that has happened or how you felt about it.
Tina Borsa: Yeah. I mean, I think it's happened like a few times in my sessions and across the board and my response is very empathetic most of the time. And so it feels awkward, I guess. And I don't know, but it feels awkward and uncomfortable and like, yeah, like positive regard, but like, what do we do here? Like, and, and I think for me, I have. a discomfort with naming that. I don't know if anyone's ever named it in session with a client. That sounds scary to me. I don't know. Have y 'all done it?
Jade Giff: Not directly the closest. I haven't been able to directly name it because it truly is really uncomfortable. I feel like it actually just kind of takes me out of this space a bit. And I go, I feel like I go into a little bit of an autopilot mode at that point. The closest I've ever gotten is kind of just being able to offer a different perspective to what they were saying. Like, I understand where you're coming from as somebody who is racialized, who has to navigate this daily. This is what it feels like on the other end. This is how it can appear. And that's the most I've been able to do. And that does feel good. It definitely feels like it's missing something, though. It does feel like it kind of shies. And I was kind of speaking to this before you came, Tina, but I was saying like a space like this would be so necessary where we don't have to be like in an educator role where we don't have to explain like why these things are uncomfortable and distressing. And we can have just somebody understand that just right off the bat. Because, yeah, I remember the same situation, taking it to supervision and like feeling very held and cared for, but just not feeling necessarily... It's like I got clinically the advice that I needed. I didn't necessarily felt like I just wanted somebody to complain with me and to just hear it. So, yeah, I haven't been able to address it directly. So I would absolutely need a space like this to talk about it.
Aziz Mirza: Adding to that, I'd say that, you know, of course, as we're all saying, yes, this has come up all the time. I think. Actually, it was very awkward for me. I think over time, what I've kind of realized for myself is I need time to think about it. I want to know why is it that I want to address it and what about it I want, you know, landed for well for the client. Right. So just taking the time to kind of think about that. And I think a really big part of that has been also where my therapeutic relationship is with this person. If this is maybe the first or second time I'm meeting this person, probably not going to say just name it right away. But I've gotten to a point, I will say I got to a point with one client. Where I was able to kind of highlight that, like, yeah, that makes sense for your experience being someone who is white. Right. It hasn't been my experience and hasn't been the experience of a lot of like BIPOC folks. But because we had such a good rapport that they were able to understand that and that happened gradually, we would start talking about these like, you know, different systems and institutions to kind of get there. But I imagine that if I if I did that without kind of the care and intention behind all of that, probably wouldn't happen.
Shadi K: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And I think I think on the part of the person in session, it would require a lot of like trust in you and trust in that relationship and that it's coming from a place of wanting to help rather than criticize or anything like that. Yeah. I do find, though, that there is this real tension, right, between the activist in me, right, and the helper. Yeah. In me, because it isn't just about, you know, wanting a space where I don't have to educate people. Sometimes I do feel like it is my job to educate people. But it's like, how do you hold that balance right between not wanting to alienate the person in front of you? It was so easy for me to say as a supervisor, right, to, you know, to say to my my intern, you know that your client is wrong. Right. I hear you doing this lovely job of holding space for these white tears. Right. But he is actually, he's wrong. And she was, oh, I know. But there is this this piece, right, like if we have an intersectional praxis, right. And I do still use the word feminist. Like, I know it's fraught. I always put like intersectional before it. And and it's so like hard to kind of like, I obviously want to make sure that people know that like my feminism is, you know, trans inclusive, sex worker inclusive, all of the good things. And obviously it isn't white feminism. I really friggin hope. But the idea, right. That if the person was political and, you know, when is it my job when I have like a modicum of authority or structural power, right. As in a helping relationship to set a person straight. Yeah. Like at what point is it my responsibility, right. To like tell this person you're acting a fool because you're going out and you're harming racialized people in the world if you move through the world in this way. And is that a kindness to the client? Because if people are white. Wanting to move through the world in a better way or have better relationships or just be, you know, like the best version of themselves is the best version of that person. Somebody who is now armed with the information that like maybe like shedding white tears to a racialized person, like isn't the most appropriate thing that you can do. And so sometimes I just never know where that line in the sand is.
Tina Borsa: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I like that perspective. It's come. It's. You know. they're coming to you for a reason, right? Like they could have picked anyone and they're coming to you, you know, maybe they want to be checked on in that way and challenged and been given a different perspectives, especially if, you know, if this client is like a good fit for you up until that point, you know, there's a reason for that. I assume they're like a kind, compassionate person who is just not getting that. And part of our job is. To challenge people too. But challenging folks is hard in general, I think. And then you add this layer to it and then it's even harder.
I think you made such a great point, Tina, in that sometimes maybe it is from that specific person or BIPOC person or like, you know, that you need that compassion from, right? Whatever that need is that that's meeting, right? But maybe that's there's power in that, that you're needing that. But this is what we're talking. But where it becomes so complicated to kind of hold someone's pain when that that same thing is causing your own pain and you click sit and think like, okay, well, right now you're being racist towards my people, for example, but you want me to console you and support you. But then I'm feeling angry inside and it's it's just like a turmoil inside. So totally, totally get what you're saying.
Tina Borsa: And I do think like, I mean, a lot of like the conversations I have with my clients, they're a lot of them. Get it like a lot of them do get it. And so I don't think it's like the majority. It's like every once in a while and it happens. And yeah, I think there's also been a lot of folks that I'm like, whoa, like surprised by how much they get it, given their kind of identity and other pieces. I'm like, well, how do you like, where did you learn this stuff from?
Shadi K: I mean, I think actually that's a really great point, Tina, is one of the things, right? We have such a special space as clinicians at our landing place. So because we are by and for 2SLGBTQ like clinic, right, we're also attracting clients, I think, that that overwhelmingly have really good politics, queer and trans folks, generally speaking, will will sort of have this like view and analysis of the world because of their own experiences of marginalization, where even the white people that we're seeing are already a few steps ahead, right, of the general population. And so I think like kind of what I have also. Born in mind is that like when we all get together and we can have discussions like this, like we also do have the privilege of maybe having a client population who is further along the way than some of our counterparts out there. And so what I really want this group, you know, to be for whom I want it to be for are also our counterparts who are working in community agencies, in government, in their own private practice where they're seeing anyone and everyone. And they maybe don't have the benefits. And of having all queer and trans colleagues or all queer and trans clients, you know, who are at least halfway there for some of these issues. But, you know, anybody could be walking through their door and there may be being subjected to, you know, all kinds of like microaggressions or violence or discrimination on the basis of their queerness, which we're largely protected from in this context. And then also on the basis of their racialization. And so for those folks out there. You know, who don't have the benefit of working in a context that we work like, like those are the folks I'm thinking of, too. Yeah. Yeah.
Tina Borsa: Oh, yeah. I imagine I was lucky, you know, I did my internship at OLP and then started working here. So I haven't had those experiences as much as I think someone would. Yeah. If they're working just with everyone.
Shadi K: Yeah. I can tell you after a decade at the Sexual Assault Center, I had to see whoever they gave me. Yeah. And that was very, very different. Yeah. Yeah. Like, how do you hold space in that?
Tina Borsa: Oh, that would be so hard.
Aziz Mirza: I was just echoing what Shadi said, like working in a public health organization and seeing whoever, you know, basically is given to you or walks in through the door. It's such a different experience than being able to choose and decide for yourself on the kind of, you know, clients that you want to work with and the kind of issues that you want to work with. Which, again, even same as my experience. Like. started my journey with like, you know, seeing clients like at Our Landing Place. I just felt so, so blessed and I'm so thankful that I got that experience because if I started with public health, I think that I would have seen and understood this journey and counseling very, very differently.
Shadi K: Yeah. So, but absolutely, you know, Tina, I have definitely felt that, holy, like I'm so lucky to be working with the clients that like that my clients are. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, to just bring this back around, I'm really glad to hear, you know, the consultation group or, or care network or, or whatever it is that I'm going to end up calling it sounds like it would be appealing and meaningful to y 'all. I mean, that's what we're hoping, right. Is to generate that excitement or, or help people understand, you know, why they might want to attend and, and just thinking, you know, of you as a subset of people who would find value in this, even though I think that we do have more. More supportive and more understanding environment than a lot of people work in really helps me to understand that there are folks out there, you know, who are all by themselves, who, who don't even have this. And so I want to create a version of this, you know, for folks like that as well. And you, of course, are all welcome to join it as if you do feel so inspired, but I am really hoping that, yeah, that this helps other folks kind of go, yeah, I want that. And yeah, so just curious if you've got any just final thoughts about what a group like this would, would mean to you as a clinician.
Tina Borsa: Yeah. I mean, I think given the context for each of us that we would still be interested, I just feel like it'll be such a draw for so, so, so many people. If I was by myself in a clinic with all white folks and me, I don't know. I'd be like begging you to join, you know? Yeah. And I feel even in this community where we have. I still feel like it'd be incredible, you know?
Jade Giff: Yeah. One last thing that was brought up for me, I think it's bit in the opposite direction of, I think sometimes when working with, like, I think about the Black woman I work with, and I think sometimes I could get caught up in that over-identification with them. And I actually think groups like this can help point that out when there's too much of that, like, transference or counter-transference coming in. And when it's, like, that relatability is now actually starting to impact in a not-so-positive way. So I think even that reminder of, like, it's beautiful to be able to share these identities with our clients, sometimes that over-identification absolutely starts to creep in. And I think sometimes it can be that reminder, that break from it almost.
Aziz Mirza: I think that one thing that excites me about a consultation group like this is just recognizing that we're all kind of. At a different stage and level of, you know, our work and career, but also lived experiences. And I think that that can have, that can be so beneficial for, you know, everyone in the room to kind of learn from and, like, learn different skills and learn different interventions. Like, I feel like even just in our conversation today, I was, like, thinking about how, like, oh, this can be even, like, said as an intervention. This could be, you know, done to, like, you know, make me reflect on my own counter-transference kind of going on. So I feel like that skill and resource sharing. Aspect would be so exciting, knowing that, like, maybe I can learn from someone who is, like, you know, has, like, a younger, fresher perspective. But then I can also benefit from, like, having someone who's older and wiser than me. And again, like, those not just age-wise, but just, like, skills-wise and all of that. So I think that that's what would be really exciting, you know, for a lot of, I think, people knowing that they can actually take tangible things from space like this.
Shadi K: Awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm just so grateful that you wanted to come and share in this episode today. Thank you so much!
